We feel pretty confident that a lot of you are big readers. I mean, you’re here, right??? So this episode ought to resonate with you. Host Russ Roberts treats us to a fascinating conversation with software engineer Andy Matuschak, who played an integral role in the early days of Khan Academy. And Matuschak says, well, books don’t work.
What kind of books do you read? Why do you read fiction? Non-fiction? And how much do you really remember of what you read? For that matter, as Russ asks his guest, what do we really mean by learning or remembering anyway? Are books a “pleasant way of passing time” for you, or does your reading constitute serious learning?
1- What does Matuschak mean by transmissionism, and why is it so hard to achieve with reading (especially non-fiction)?
2- What’s the difference between open-ended and multiple choice understanding either? To what extent can either help you acquire wisdom? How do Matuschak’s thoughts on reading compare to those of Doug Lemov? Who do you think offers the better advice?
3- What advice about forming memories of your reading reliably can you take from this episode? What other suggestions can you provide for your fellow readers and listeners?
4- Have you ever read a book because it was featured in an EconTalk episode (either whole or in part)? Why? Were you glad you did? Again, why? What makes you decide to read a book generally?
5- How can we make EconTalk more of an educational activity??? Matuschak suggests that listening to a conversation or debate is only the first step on a scaffold. How do we help listeners take the next step?
(P.S. We’re so serious about that last question… Good suggestions will be taken very seriously, and we may have books and swag to share in exchange!)
READER COMMENTS
mac
Aug 16 2019 at 2:21pm
Humor and adventure is missing in nonfiction in my humble opinion. Look at the old (pre 1970) cartoons, Mark Twain, and many of the shows on Me-TV network. Economics, philosophy, psychology, music appreciation, etc are all delightfully brought together.
Teaching economics, physics, etc doesn’t have to be boring. Present it in a way where it sucker punches the student. Like the movie the Karate Kid….wax on wax off.
Before 1950, there used to be a wonderful genre’ of books called vocational fiction. The lessons are learned, the stage is total bunk…but most don’t go to a concert just for the frill.
Short term entertainment…memorable education one doesn’t mind watching again.
Eric S.
Aug 16 2019 at 4:44pm
Patrick Deneen’s episode inspired me to read his book “Why Liberalism Failed”, and having already heard the framework of Deneen’s thinking in the podcast, I found it easier to follow the arguments in the book.
In general, when I read non-fiction, I find the experience more fulfilling (pedagogically and entertainment wise) when I allow myself to go down a few rabbit holes with things I don’t understand. I usually keep my phone nearby while reading to search things I don’t quite grasp, or to get a picture, a video, a map, or other supporting material. I also enjoy making notes and performing little thought experiments with the ideas being presented.
The downside to this is that it usually takes me a long time to get through a book…and sometimes I don’t get through them entirely, which I usually feel guilty about. I forget which episode, but I think Russ mentioned that he too felt this way in the past (i.e. guilt over unfinished reading). I’d be curious to hear if he still feels the same way.
One of my takeaways from the episode with Mr. Matuschak was that this guilt is unfounded. The time taken to read the remainder of an unfinished book is less likely to lead to increasing knowledge on the topic than is spending the time elsewhere: studying other media, or on other activities related to the topic. Indeed, the combination of the two is likely to lead to better understanding than either one alone.
SaveyourSelf
Aug 16 2019 at 5:00pm
There is a really fun science fiction series called Expeditionary Force by Craig Alanson. In his books, aliens invade earth, then different aliens invade earth, and then earth starts fighting back. What I found particularly interesting in these books, besides the fun banter between a mysterious super computer and the book’s protagonist, is that before each military engagement, the author spends a considerable amount of time describing how his crew comes up with its goals, breaks down the goals into smaller parts, delegates those parts, develops plans, and prepares for their eventual execution of those plans. None of that was particularly interesting to me. What was interesting is that each time they finally develop a plan, the crew will build a mock facility on an out of the way moon, or in an abandoned space station, or in their own maintenance bay, and then do live practice runs for days. I found that last bit interesting because it takes up a lot of space and time to read. I figured the author must have a military background and that those live mock battles were just part of the military culture—something to keep them busy during peacetime. But the more I read these books, the more I started to think that the mock battles in preparation for action weren’t just quaint niceties. If anything, they are brilliant and practical. Because ideas and plans are nice and all, buy they aren’t reality. In educational jargon, models are not reality. And reality is not a model. Confusing the two is an error of more than just labeling. It is substituting two entirely different things for one another and then treating them as if they are the same. It’s an obvious error. Yet we do it all the time. I now think the military knows something that the education system does not. Reciting back a memorized factoid, whether fill in the blank or open ended question or multiple choice—is not an exercise is realistic problem solving. For learning to be practical, it has to be real, or at least very close to real. This may be why the Boy Scouts is such an effective teaching institution. Because the Scouts do things. They read and study, sure, but then they go out and do the things they were reading and studying. Educator’s take note. Sitting in a lecture is not a realistic exercise in problem solving. Not by itself, anyhow. Learning requires doing something.
Arde
Aug 22 2019 at 6:00am
Question 4. Yes, I have read a couple of books from the Econtalk guest. I have read a book of Russ Roberts (I read it because I like Russ Roberts and was interested in what he has to say about Adam Smith), Ian Ayeres (because I was intrigued by the idea that statistical analysis outperforms expert judgement and wanted to know more about it), Jason Barr (because I was planning a trip to New York and wanted to read one book about the city), Arnold Kling (because I found his idea of three languages of politics absolutely brilliant, it is simple and at the same time very helpful to understand people with different political views), Daren Acemoglu (my experience has made me believe that institutions are very important, and I wanted to read more about it from someone who has thought deeply about this issue), Abhijit Banerjee (I was intrigued by the idea that RCT is a powerful analytical tool and it can be used to discover surprising things about people in developing countries, and not only there), Luigi Zingales (because I dislike crony capitalism, I believe it is a serious problem, and was curious to learn more about it), Joshua Angrist (because I am interested in methods to discover causality), Robert Skidelsky (because I am interested in idea of what could be a good society and his book gave one possible answer to this), Yuval Levin (sometimes I was puzzled about the political divide, why people see things so differently and why they are so hateful to each other. To understand this a little bit better, I thought that it would be worthwhile to look back in the history when all this started).
All these books were great experiences, except maybe for the Jason Barr book, which was too technical for my taste (too much geology and technical terms, too many references to names and places, which did not mean anything to me). However, I liked his idea of applying cost-benefit analysis to historical problems. This seemed very interesting and original. All the other books have profoundly affected the way I look at the world and analyse the problems. I learned a lot from them.
There are many more I would like to read. I wish I had more time for reading
I have also read books of other Econtalk guest, but the idea to read them did not come from Econtalk or I read them before hearing the authors on Econtalk. These are books of William Easterly, Paul Collier, Thomas Piketty, Thomas Sowell, Jeffrey Sachs, George Borjas and Nassim Taleb. I read them in a period of my life when I was interested in development and inequality or when my book choice was affected by various top 10 economics books lists.
Arde
Aug 22 2019 at 7:52am
Oh, I forgot to mention Solzhenitsyn’s “In the first circle”. I don’t think I would have come across this book if it were not discussed at Econtalk. Absolutely brilliant book! So deep on so many levels. Great experience.
Krista
Sep 3 2019 at 8:48pm
In response to #5: encourage the formation of EconTalk discussion groups. Other books-and-ideas based podcasts do this, sometimes with great success. I already do this informally with other people who read the same books and listen to EconTalk. By discussing our understanding of the episode and engaging with the speaker’s (and Russ’!) points in a social setting among folks who enjoy light debate, we all certainly absorb more.
What’s more is that this is a great setting to bring together people from different ideological points of view. Folks I regularly engage with count themselves, variously, as conservatives, libertarians, dyed-in-the-wool liberals, etc. We benefit from Russ’ example as a gracious conversational partner and are committed to keeping a similar tone, which I think creates a supportive environment that enhances our engagement and learning. Friendships among avid learners and across ideological boundaries (because your intellectual adversaries are your closest readers and therefore best sparring partners!) is the best.
Forgive the excessive exclamation points…overtired Millennial mother and doctoral student here.
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